Home > Rug, Kelim, Soumak, Textile Post Archive >An Experiment
Tue, Dec 22nd, 2009 11:37:48 AM
Topic: An Experiment

Here's a little experiment: Below are two soumak bags RK has illustrated several times before.

Both are pictured in weretime's book "Sumak Bags" on pages 208 and 209 respectively

The first is in the collection of steve price, the second is in RK's.

The experiment is to have readers vote for the bag:

1. they think is the earlier one
2. they would want to own

RK would prefer anyone who is participating do so in their own name but any anonymous vote will also be, naturally, permitted.

No one needs to register or agree to anything to post here on RugKazbah.com all you need to do is click on the post a response button.

RugKazbah gets about 80 unique users per day that 'hit' about 1000 pages in total, so here should be a decent number of you reading this and, hopefully, not too shy and scared to vote....

#1. plate 131 weretime 1998

#2 plate 132 weretime 1998

Author: jc
Tue, Dec 22nd, 2009 11:37:48 AM

Well, well, where's mr bluster now?

Shaking down his piggy-bank to come up with the 5K$ he needs put his money where his mouth is?

Probably not, but he faded like the ink on a cheap sweat-shirt when we mentioned we were on his tail.

We still are and, regardless of his abstaining from littering our discussion board with his slanderous outrageous accusations, we will pursue him to the fullest extent of our capabilities.

He was not the first, nor does RK believe he will be the last, but we can promise anyone who wants to try to repeat his malfeasance will meet the same resolve on RK's part.

Author: doesntmatter
Sun, Dec 20th, 2009 10:27:27 PM

Ah well to you, too.

First you post here anonyMOUSEly.Who would be tolerant of chicken-shit poseurs, bashers and the like.

Would you welcome someone into your place -- remember RugKazbah is our place -- who breaks your furniture, eats all your food, drinks your wine and then throws up all over the floor and walls?

Get real, mousey.

This was an experiment, but not one you and others seem to understand.

As we stated we could care less about the opinion of others -- we surely don't need approval, or is this your first visit to RugKazbah.com?

The fact we allowed a midget-brain like weretime to sucker punch us years ago doesn't mean we are so foolish as to let that ever happen again.

You and everyone who tries to mr bluster your way into our place, and then gets a good spanking, should be evidence enough that we do not suffer a-holes well.

Would you like to advance to round 2?

If so get your helmet on and some shin-pads b/c when we need to defend ourself we know better than to expect those like you to fight fair.


Mr. Cassin-

You started this thread one week ago with an OP that includes:"The experiment is to have readers vote for the bag:

1. they think is the earlier one and2. they would want to own

... any anonymous vote will also be, naturally, permitted.


... so here should be a decent number of you reading this and, hopefully, not too shy and scared to vote.... "

Having received only one opinion in response to your request (an obviously unwelcome one at that), you have now written:"Honestly, we could care less about what the lumpen proletariat of rugDUMB thinks of us, or our soumak.


Because they dont know their asses from a holes in the ground, or swiss-cheese when it comes differentiating between airport art and historic weaving."

Tragic. (Interesting taste/ideas and vast knowledge about rugs, though.) Ah, well...

Author: doentmatter
Sun, Dec 20th, 2009 08:18:03 PM

Your arguments are as solid as swiss-cheese, but surely not as appetizing.

You accuse RK of "being intolerant" of any perspective that differs from our own.

Making accusations without backing them up is crap.

If you are such an "expert" on RK and our alleged "intolerance" why dontcha prove it with just one example if we are such a serial abuser as you claim?

Should you be able to do this, we will admit you have a point.

Should you not, then go shovel some snow in your driveway in Minneapolis.

To be blunt, we find you to be a mettlesome jerk, who is pretending to be "nice" and "helpful".

Do you really think by "reposting" this in another topic area you will elicit replies?

If so you are a fool.

And asking us to "promise" not to intrude?

What the fuck are you implying, mini-man?

And saying we have made clear our opinion about these bags?

Isn't it patently obvious RK knows which one is better?

Do you think we need some arsehole like you to inform us about that?

Go canvass the rug-schmucks you know and then write it here with what they say, if you are so interested in the "experiment".

Or dontcha know anyone?

Why a feckless fool like you bothers the write in here to provoke a fray that you have no chance in winning, let alone making it past round 1, is amazing.

Honestly, we could care less about what the lumpen proletariat of rugDUMB thinks of us, or our soumak.


Because they dont know their asses from a holes in the ground, or swiss-cheese for that matter, when it comes differentiating between airport art and historic weaving.

FYI: the pair of bags we illustrated came from a sotheby NY sale in about 1994/5.

They were displayed in the center of the exhibition gallery.

The scuttlebutt was they had "sulphonic" green, therefore, they only sold for 2200 for the pair.

Too bad the scuttlebutt was, like those who don't know their behinds from holes in the ground, wrong.

Remember, folks, there is natural sulphonic green/blue and chemical or synthetic.

What's the difference?

In a nut-shell, and the most general terms, the former is produced from non-laboratory means and the other is produced with sulphuric acid, created in a lab.

How does one tell the difference?

Go study yourselves, RK has no desire to spoon-feed info to clods, jerks and a-holes.

Here's a quick definition available on the web:

"Indigo sulphonic acid was synthesized by Barth in 1740 in Grossenhain (Saxony) from indigo and sulphuric acid....the dye fades readily when washed or exposed to light".

Since we included a jpeg of the back of the bag, where anyone can see there is no fading when the front is compared, it should signify to anyone the green/blue is a natural and not a synthetic.

Also look at the blue, it too does not exhibit any fading.

As the old saying goes a little knowledge is dangerous.

Any other dumbass ideas from the peanut gallery?


Mr. Cassin-

You wrote:"And where might we ask are you going to 're-post' our experiment?"

As I earlier wrote:"... I would like to repost your experiment (here on RK.com) and help you get data." Wouldn't the best place for that be in the 'Pictures for Discussion' area?

If that is to work, you would first have to promise that you would not contribute to (some would say intrude on) the thread. After all, you have already made it clear what your answers to your own questions are. Why might you agree to this? You might if you truly are curious to learn how some others see/feel the relative merits of the two pieces.

As I see it, you are unable to foster dialog because you are intolerant of any perspective that varies from your own. All but those who want something from you will not tolerate such an attitude. Why not post an idea or question and then sit back and let dialog take place? There truly is nothing to fear other than your own enragement. Do you really desire to get responses from only those who wish to goad you?

It is almost certainly too late for this board to become a place where ideas about weavings, art, and history are openly explored. That would be a shame. There are some interesting discussions elsewhere on the web, but clearly there is much more that could be done with your cooperation. I am volunteering to make an attempt to help you. Its up to you.

Author: doesntmatter
Sun, Dec 20th, 2009 04:40:02 PM

OK, "doesn'tmatter", might RK ask what you are talking about?

We made it clear the first "volunteer" and the "second" are the same misguided "person" and his opinion is nonsense. This person also published outrageously untrue personal accusations and will not escape paying for his slanderous and defamatory behaviour.

Regardless of that, the fact remains there are no synthetic dyes in the soumak, or any soumak we have published.

His insistence there are, his failure to accept our challenge, his discounting the above makes mockery of his "position" -- and, by inference, yours as well.

And where might we ask are you going to "re-post" our experiment?

Frankly, we could care less where that is but, since it is ours, we would like to know before we give our approval.

FYI: We have received several private emails and all of them made clear there is no contest here, our bag wins on all counts. But, then again, the senders are known to us and are far more knowledgeable than most.

RK should also mention very few people will write into a website, not only RugKazbah.


Same reason tens of thousands read a newspaper but only a percent of a percent will write a letter to the editor.

Just something for you and others to remember...


It appears to me that your experiment would have had a better chance to generate data if it had been presented (I will simply say) elsewhere. Your response to the first volunteer in the experiment demonstrates why that is so. I suppose your answer to the second will do also. Nevertheless...

With your permission, I would like to repost your experiment (here on RK.com) and help you get data. Why? Because I am interested in the questions you asked.

Author: not-novice
Fri, Dec 18th, 2009 06:14:17 AM

Hey shithead: Pardon us, but your ignorance is showing.

The pictures in weretime's book began with our photographer making a 4x5 color transparency.

The soumak bag illustrated in weretime's book was, at the time of photography, as dirty as filty as it is now.

Since RK was not involved in the process of taking that transparency and

1. making the 4 separations, which were used to make the 4 printing plates
that were then
2. used in an off-set color press to reproduce the image on a color press

we surely cannot vouch for the fidelity you see in weretime's book.

Regardless, the pictures in weretime's book were still made of a bag that is filthy dirty and are at least 3 "steps" from the original.

RK knows a lot about printing books. We wrote and produced three, overseeing each step of the process involved in turning words and pictures into a book.

We also wrote another, Tent Band Tent Bag -- Classic Turkmen Weaving, and ghost wrote the only significant chapters of another Shawls of the East.

Clearly, you are nothing but a schmuck whose knowledge of anything is pathetically deficient.

But you continue to shoot off your dumbass shit here -- go put your 5000 dollars up, we will too, and lets see who is right.

My bank, or attorney, will be glad to act as an escrow agent and there are several labs where the samples can be analyzed.

Cut cut the shit asshole -- you bore us with your stupid and totally misplaced impertinent comments.

Should you like to face us man-to-man, rather than hide behind anonymity, we will be glad to oblige you in any way you like, little man.

Is that now clear?


Now I get it. The full page plates in "Soumak Bags" are all low resolution digital photos. What look like faded synthetic dyes are really dirty rugs. You should get paid for the education you give us. Who do you think you're fooling?

Author: jc
Thu, Dec 17th, 2009 05:11:04 PM

RK imagines mr fluster, ex-bluster, put on his Walgreen's one size fits all reading glasses, put down his budwiser, and finally looked carefully at the photos of our soumak bags.

Guess once he focused his limited attention, instead of shooting off his mouth, the realization he's full of crap finally dawned on this pea-brain.

Any other dumbass jerks want to get skewered by RK?

Now then, how about some voting from all you out there in cyberspace.

Author: not-novice
Wed, Dec 16th, 2009 05:45:26 AM

Hey dummy:

Pointing your finger at RK for "proving that you were wrong" is as laughable as dennis dodds saying he won't contest what we have proven about him because he doesn't want to "stoop" to our level.

You are clearly a moron -- the bag is not faded, it is filthy dirty and the pictures are low resolution. Obviously you know less about how to judge a digital photo than you do about a weaving.

Let's cut to the chase here : Again you claim the bag has " more than one chemical dye".

No problem, put your 5,000 us dollars up, RK will do likewise, and let's go to the races.

Talk is cheap and you appear to be a pauper in that department -- go prove us wrong and you win 5K$ and bragging rights.

Keep flapping your worthless jaws and you only waste RK's time and make yourself look even less credible.

Is that clear now, little man?


You are right. I only thought the violet in the star at 1:00 was faded, thus most likely not vegetal. Your photo of the back makes it clear; light faded it, and the red as well. Your fragment looks like it has more than one chemical dye. If you are happy with it, that's all that matters. I applaud your ability to stand up and thump your chest while proving that you were wrong.

Author: jc
Tue, Dec 15th, 2009 04:44:59 PM

Big talk No walk

Just like many other wanna-be RK bashers mr bluster came in here with sails flying a full head of steam.

Now, 24 hours later, mr bluster's sails are ripped and torn and he is dead in the water.

What happened? Well quite clearly mr bluster realized how full of crap his accusations were and he headed back into the obscurity of rugDumb.

We are not surprised as we have forgotten more about soumak bags, and other non-urban rugs, than mr bluster and all the others bullshitters will ever know in two lifetimes.

Any other comers?

Author: jc
Mon, Dec 14th, 2009 07:23:37 PM

The reason RK put this "experiment" in the Stupidity in RugDumb category was both prescient and obvious -- we knew some idiot, wanna-be RK basher would chime in, and chime in loud and clear you have, ding-dong.

It is amazing the level of idiocy rampant in rugDumb and you, sir/madam, are a galloping example.

Since RK isn't like dodds and others, who take candy from babies as part and parcel of their business modus operandi, we will give you more information before you lose your $$$ and put the other foot, as well as your boots, in your fat mouth.

Here is a closeup of the back of the area you claim to have synthetic violet dye, as well as a picture of the other half of the khorjin.

We are sorry the quality is low but these pictures are our archival snapshots and the bags themselves are in a vault 2000 miles from where we are sitting.

Also these pics are un-photo-shopped or retouched and were made with flash in low resolution.

Peer at them all you want, dummy, and if you still want to insist you know more than RK, go put up your $5K, we will too, and let's send a sample of your imaginary synthetic violet dye to a lab.

Talk is cheap, putz, go put your cash where your mouth is and RK will be glad to take it and donate it to the Weaving Art Museum in your name -- that's if you have one.

Author: not-novice
Mon, Dec 14th, 2009 10:48:52 AM

As the saying goes:

"Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one"

Now are you really so daft and stupid to think after collecting soumak bags for 30 plus years, and being involved with old weavings for more than 40, RK would buy, then own for almost 20 years, a bag with synthetic dye?

You may not be a novice or an arsehole in your "opinion" but you have proven yourself to be both.

And not having the guts and honesty to post in your own name makes you look even worse.

Plus here's something for you to chew on while you're eating your cheerios tomorrow morning:

How about a 5,000 US dollar wager there is no synthetic "violet" dye in the bag or its mate which RK also owns?

After all even a freshman chem major can prove or disprove the presence of a chemical dye, no opinion necessary, n'est ce pas?.

So put up your cash and let's go to the "races", schmuck.


Age? Both 19th c.; just guesswork after that. Better? Condition: you lose big. Drawing? Yours may be archaic or may just be lousy. I call it a draw. Color? Yours is faded and has synthetic violet in star at 1:00 in the medallion. I don' think you could get $100 on Ebay.

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