Home > Rug, Kelim, Soumak, Textile Post Archive >New Kelim Publication
Fri, Feb 17th, 2006 07:21:32 AM
Topic: New Kelim Publication

We have just learned a new publication "The Prammer Collection" is being touted as an important addition to the already large body of works dealing with Anatolian Kelims.

We must admit publishing a book about them "Image Idol Symbol - Ancient Anatolian Kelims" in 1990(it's online as the first show at the Weaving Art Museum

A good number, in fact, many other books have been published since but none, except "The Goddess from Anatolia", have much substance or originality, well at least not to any great degree in our estimation.

It appears from what we have seen and heard this new book doesn't either.

But it can't be worse than "Anatolian Kelims", published by the Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco (de Young Museum).

That text, which has been called "garbage" and "gibberish" by others we know, -- comments with which we heartily agree -- was truly unfortunate, because a few of the pieces illustrated therein are some of the most important known archaic examples, along with the few that grace the pages of "Image Idol Symbol".

The deYoung Museum's kelim book text, mostly written by cathryn cootner, includes such gems as "The language of this weaving tradition is even more coherent and accessible in the earlier examples" and "Color is the soul of the language of Anatolian Kilims". Both "gems are from the pen of ms cathryn cootner who, in our opinion, did more to destroy the significant opportunities for Oriental carpets and kelims to become widely appreciated in the Bay Area than if a mighty earthquake would have swallowed up golden gate park and the de Young museum with it.

This is not the place to expand on our comments about ms. cootner and perhaps one day sooner or later we will.

But before we look at bit at this new publication, let us mention a couple of "gems" cootner's co-author garry muse wrote in his part.

"A kilim that captures this ancient iconographic language has a deeply moving presence; it reveals, in a way perhaps more sensed than understood, the importance of the image it bears." and "The most important point I wish to make is that Anatolian kilims have something to communicate."

Both cootner and muse talk of a kelim "language" and its ability to communicate but neither of them tells the reader one thing that "language" has ever "communicated" to them, or anyone else for that matter.

Are these but hollow statements from hollow minds? RK would have to say yes, since there is not one shred of evidence these authors have provided though they spent thousands of words in trying.

It is a book of hyperbole, it presents ideas and feelings as fact and leads the reader on a wild-goose chase to nowhere.

OK enough said about cootner and muse's effort, what about prammer's?

From the kelims of prammer's we have already seen and know, we'd have to say he should have kept the rest of them in his closet rather than publishing them and taking the chance someone like RK, who has the expertise and experience to tell him the truth, would come along and bust his bubble.

And what of the text prammer and hirsch wrote -- udo hirsch is prammer's co-author.

RK has not yet had the opportunity to read what the collector, prammer, and his expert, hirsch, have concocted for a text but let's us make another of our famous predictions -- their text will be about as nourishing as a meal comprising a pop-tart and a bottle of soda.

We will gladly retract those words should we be proven wrong but we are so sure of our perception we are willing to bet at long odds we are right.

Any takers?

Author: Alan Patel
Fri, Feb 17th, 2006 07:21:32 AM

RK Replies:

If anyone needs to pipe down it's you, mr anonymouse.

RK's review only deals with what we have already seen and read.

We have left open the possibility there might be some things of interest in prammers book.

However, since we have been at the front of kelim studies, long before prammer and even hirsch got on board, we have enough knowledge and experience to back up our statements with fact.

So even a mini-mind like you, who would bother to ask ROC (the former publisher of ORR and partner of that now departed rug blowhard and longtime poseur george o'bannon) about RK, can trust what you read here on RK.com is veritable and correct.

Should you or anyone, at anytime, object or find fault with what we write, the door is always open for you or anyone --24/7 : 365 days a year -- to post their opinions, critique or rebuttal here on RK.coms uncensored/unmediated discussion board.

We make this claim, which by the way no one else in rugdom does or has ever, because we are positive of our expertise and stand behind our statements 100 percent.


You should "pipe down" until you have seen a copy. Your ranting about things which you do not know only reinforces that you are not speaking truth. ROC warned me that you are not stable and that writing too you is pointless.

Author: Ashok
Thu, Feb 16th, 2006 11:00:59 AM

RK Replies: Learn to read, dingo.

We clearly stated our purpose and purview.

But we guess you are too blinded by stupidity to understand it.

Get lost, Ashok, you are too far up the creek without a paddle to mess with us.


How can you review a book you have not read?

Author: jc
email: [email protected]
Wed, Feb 15th, 2006 06:48:51 PM

The story of Anatolian Kelims and rug collectors is a very recent one and althoughwe are now in the aftermath of its meteoric ascent and as meteoric descent, it is a story still untold.

The fact something happened is more appreciated, both now and then, than what happened.

RK would have to say someone like prammer, and he has plenty company here, saw the something but never actually understand the what.

Granted we have not seen the book that is the subject of the hali article but we do know udo hirsch, who wrote most of it as we have heard, with prammer adding his impressions

We might be somewhat curious to read prammers patter and maybe a few of the pre-historic and early historic relationships hirsch cites will be new for us(if he strained that hard academically with his "part") but otherwise this book would be instantly forgotten on a back shelf in our library.

Well thats if someone gave it to us, as well not be queuing up to buy one anytime soon, thats for sure.

So far we have not gotten a copy and someday, if and when we do, we can turn our gaze to the text.

For now we have the hali preview/review article and the text accompanying the advertisement announcing the book publication and sale as well as a few kelims from the collection in the article and advert.

Twice in one day but we have to say it again-- sweet baby Jesus save us:
Norbert Prammer, an Austrian doctor and collector of kelims and textiles, invited an international group of experts and textile art enthusiasts to present his collection of Anatolian kilims to a critical audience for the first time.

Michael Buddeberg, the author of the hali article, introduces prammer with those words. He'd just gotten through describing the kelim party, held in a 13th century castle ruins the kelim loving doctor threw for his kelim loving guests.

Too bad prammer didnt manage to get any 13th century kelims, instead of the ones he believes warrant publication in a book -- or even being the guests of honor at such an impressive shindig.

Its not to say prammers kelims are clownland.com quality because they are not. But neither are they anything to write home about, at least not in our opinion.

Of the 6 illustrated kelims not one is a best of type nor is there anything that is unique.

There is, however, this piece:

which, though not unique, is a rare type without any iconography, design or pattern in the field or border.

We have seen several others and reserve judgment on the age of this piece until seeing far better photos and some wool samples or, best yet, seeing it in person.

The rest of the illustrations are not very interesting for us and, since there are now a number of other publications with similar pieces, we wonder why, besides for ego massage, prammer would believe his collection is important?

It might be to him and his party guests but in the world kelims it isnt.

Plus there is going to be a second exhibition, this time in the Kunstmuseum in Linz, Austria -- just in time for prammer to sell his books.

Well done, doctor, shame the material your are showing and publishing isnt better.

We are sure there will be a few interesting kelims in prammer's book and, in fact, we appreciated seeing this one:

We dont necessarily agree with the provenance prammer and hirsch state -- Afyon --, nor the date 18th century --.

Wed prefer somewhere south and east and believe early 19th century a better date guesstimate.

Using only one design, repeating it to form a complex lattice and then arranging the coloration for each of those designs without creating uniformity (stripes) or chaos (disjointed color harmony) is a very difficult task.

This kelim shows an experts hand and eye; its the best of the pieces from his collection we have seen.

Wed imagine prammer bought most of his collection from hirsch, bischoff and rageth, who played, and still play, the three musketeers of kelimology for most of the German and Austrian collectors.

Hali quotes Hirsch as saying Nowadays it is almost impossible to put together a collection of good Anatolian kilims., which they say is refuted by prammers collection itself.

Wed have to agree with hirsch and if he meant to say that about prammers kelims, wed agree again.

But surely he didnt especially since he was possibly the seller or the expert who guided prammer in his search for beauty and the aesthetics of color, as Buddeberg waxes on several times about Prammer the man.

There is no coincidence that colourplays the central role in Prammers brief comments about each piece.

Need we comment further?

We leave the following as our adieu:
1. Its not all about color as this preview/review article is entitled and clearly prammer, Budddeberg, schaeffer, et.al. believe/have been told(hirsch already knows this but keeps it to himself).

2. Its all about iconography,

boys, and thats really the what prammer, Buddeberg et.al. have missed and, seemingly, will continue to.

Author: jc
email: [email protected]
Wed, Dec 21st, 2005 09:52:07 AM

We emailed prammer the other day and just, this morning, received his reply.

We wasted no time in replying to him and what follows is that email exchange.

Clearly prammer needed a reality check and we believe he has gotten it:

From: [email protected]******
To: [email protected]*****
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:23 AM
Subject: your KELIM publication
Dec. 19, 2005

Dr. Prammer:
Perhaps you will remember our conversation of last year.

You never did call me back and until yesterday I must sayI wondered why.

But now all is explained as I have seen your website and offer to sell the book youhave published of your "collection".

Congratulations on adding another mediocre work to the vast bounty of otherwanna-be collectors of Kelims who have done likewise.

Your "collection" appears no different that those others and, I must say, probably even worse in quality.

I offered you the opportunity to purchase truly important, masterpiece examples of slit-tapestry (Kelim).

Clearly that offer fell on deaf ears, as what you have done would truly have been totally negated by your even considering my offer to you.

What you have, in fact, done is but another waste of effort and money, save making yourself feel important.

Anyway, I regret making that offer and hope this email puts what you have done, and your second rate at best "collection", into the proper perspective.

I threw into the garbage better Kelims than in your collection.

And please tell that back-stabbing low-life, udo hirsch, that my opinion of him hasn't changed and I look forward someday to confronting him personally for the sleazy, dishonest disrespect with which he repaid my friendship, trust and confidence.

Jack Cassin
Weaving Art Museum
a non-profit public charity organization

prammers reply:

on 12/21/05 8:04 AM, Norbert Prammer at [email protected]*** wrote:

I return this e-mail with its POWERSHIT. You are ill and crazy.

RK's reply to prammer's invective:

From: [email protected]******
To: [email protected]*****
Sent: Wensday, December 21, 2005 9:40 AM
Subject: your KELIM publication

Dr. Prammer:
Anyone who believes, as you obviously do, that the mediocre and basically worthless "kelims" you have published has done anything other than express aweak mind, inferior intellect and over-charged ego would, of course, naturally believe someone who told you that truth was "ill and crazy."

History will judge your effort and, from my vantage point, it already has...

and hirsch is a back-stabbing creep who returned friendship, trust and confidence with dishonesty and disrespect.

Jack Cassin
who forgot more about slit-tapestry than you and hirsch, together, will ever know
PS: my original email, your reply and this rejoinder will be published on RugKazbah.com
take a look:


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